Friday, April 28, 2006

Adam fell so we can have joy?

According to the Mormon scriptures, it is necessary for sin and evil to exist for man to be able to progress, to experience joy, to be righteous, to have free will. Even the existence of God is dependent upon sin according to the Book of Mormon. For clarity purposes read 2 Nephi 2. Is this logical? Is it good theology? Or is it nonsensical, morally revolting, and blasphemous? I choose the latter, and I’ll explain why.

First, it should be noted that 2 Nephi 2:11 affirms the necessity of opposites to all things. It says,

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so… righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad
Verse 13 brings even more clarity when it says,

And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God.
Thus, the existence of God is dependent upon six things: law, sin, righteousness, happiness, judgment, and misery. I find this to be illogical and irrational. For example, law must exist in order for God to exist, but how could law exist prior to the Lawgiver? Punishment likewise must exist in order for God to exist; but how can punishment exist prior to the one who exercises the punishment? And if righteousness is predicated on the existence of sin, then how could one be rightly punished by the Lawgiver for sinning if it is ultimately necessary to fulfill the law? The idea that the existence of God is dependent upon the existence of sin, evil, and misery is morally revolting because it depicts a God who is not transcendant over evil, and does not ultimately have the power to eradicate it. He can't eradicate it because sin must exist for all good and righteous things to exist, and God is both.

2 Nephi 2: 22-25 demonstrates how the Book of Mormon does not correspond to reality when it says,

And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin… Adam fell that men might be; and men \are, that they might have joy

The Nephi passage is saying that they had to experience misery in order to experience joy, and they had to experience sin in order to experience good; all for the progression of mankind. But is this true in reality? Does one have to go through a beating to know what a loving touch is, does one have to jump into a pile of mud to know what it is to be clean? Does one have to eat a lemon to appreciate the sweetness of an apple pie, or experience darkness to see light? No, this passage is an aberration from reality, and it presents a serious moral problem. For example, if sin is an essential ingredient of human moral growth, then why would God deceptively command Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from one particular tree, but then severely punished them when they did what He really wanted them to do! What warrant would God have to do such a thing? Would you tell your child not to do something, even though you secretly wanted him to do it, and then punish him when he did what you secretly wanted him to? Of course not! That would be contradictory to your good moral character, and you'd be a moral schizophrenic, but this is precisely what the passage says God did.

This passage also creates problems for Mormon theology, for in Mormon scripture Jesus claimed to have been God even before the world was made. If the fall was necessary for men to progress, and eventually become Gods, then why is it that Jesus became God before the fall? And why is the Holy Ghost God if He didn’t benefit from the fall either? Consider what Bruce McConkie says, “Adam was to introduce mortality and all that attends it, so that the opportunity for eternal progression and perfection might be offered to all the spirit children of the Father” (Mormon Doctrine, 268; cf. Moses 5:11). This kind of inconsitency seems to be common in Mormon doctrine, and its things like this that make Christians like me think the Book of Mormon was invented by Joseph Smith, and that the Church that is founded on it is man made too.

2 Comments:

Blogger vessey said...

Wyatt, thanks for commenting on my blog. I was kinda disappointed that you didn’t take a stab at any of the other posts, but that’s fine. Anyhow, in regards to your first issue, I did quote the entire chapter via a link to the Church’s online BOM. I even said, “For clarity purposes” read the provided link. But I do agree that a misquotation can turn a butterfly into a butt, as you so aptly put it. In fact, that’s what I think the Mormon Church has done with God (read Romans 1). That’s another subject, but in regards to your post I don’t think you were very clear in what you were trying to say. You simply summarized what you thought the passage was saying in vs. 17, vaguely criticized my view that Adam and Eve were punished, and then moved on to somewhat challenged my view that the BOM portrays God as one who wanted Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit and punished them for it. I don’t think you explained yourself adequately enough in any of those cases, but I will address a few things you mentioned.

First of all I want to make a point before I begin. I find it interesting that Isaiah 5:20 says,

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter."

This is exactly what the Mormon Church has done, they have called the fall a good thing, they have made obedience to Satan a commendable thing, and they have called disobedience to God a good thing. Don’t you see this!!! Are you blind?! It is never okay to disobey God, and God isn’t so stupid to make contradictory commandments. Mormonism perverts the righteousness of God, and makes him a bumbling fool.

This next quote really makes me sick. It’s from former LDS prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith,

"One of these days, if I ever get to where I can speak to Mother Eve, I want to thank her for tempting Adam to partake of the fruit. He accepted the temptation [from Satan], with the result that children came into this world… If she hadn’t had that influence over Adam, and if Adam had done according to the commandment first given to him, they would still be in the Garden of Eden and we would not be here at all. We wouldn’t have come into this world. So the commentators made a great mistake when they put in the Bible… 'man’s shameful fall'" (Ensign, Jan. 2006, 52)

This is calling evil, “good”, and good “evil”. Since when is it a good thing to disobey God? Didn’t Christ say that you show me that you love me when you obey me? Disobeying God isn’t loving him. What a tragedy the Mormon Church has committed.

Okay, now for what you said. I disagree when you say,

"Lehi uses a line of logic to prove that there must be an opposition in all things but he never says that you have to experience both, simply that they must exist. He’s not saying you have to eat both a lemon and an apple pie to know the difference, simply that opposites must exist for you to have a choice between them."

I find your statement to be unrealistic to Mormonism because of the fact the Mormon Church clearly teaches that in order to really know the difference between the opposites, Adam and Eve had to experience the opposites, as quoted in the Church’s teaching manual 34822, AP 3, 6: The Fall of Adam, Objective 19,

“Without the fall, we would not have become mortal or known the fullness of joy that comes from having a mortal body and from choosing good over evil.” [It goes on to say] “Adam and Eve gained a knowledge of good and evil by their own experience.”

It later quotes Brigham Young saying,

“Because it was necessary that sin should enter into the world; no man could ever understand the principle of exaltation without its opposite; no one could ever receive an exaltation without being acquainted with its opposite. … they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and he had designed that they should” (Discourses of Bringham Young, p. 103).

It’s clearly evident that the Mormon Church thinks the opposites must be engaged by somebody, whether it’s Adam or somebody else, to know good from evil. The same manual says the following,

"Help the young men understand that if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit… They would not have known good and evil. Consequently, no one could do good or evil, know joy or misery, or learn obedience in the face of opposition."

Secondly, I disagree when you say,

"Then there is the issue of whether God wanted Adam to eat the fruit or not. Well we know God is all knowing and all powerful, so certainly he knew what would happen and he did nothing to prevent it when he certainly had the power to."

This still doesn’t explain whether you think God did or did not want to them to eat the fruit. According to Mormonism God clearly did want them to eat of it. Even Brigham Young says, “But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and he had designed that they should” (Discourses of Brigham Young, 103)

This is what makes Christians think that Mormonism is so blasphemes, it makes God a moral schizophrenic. LDS theology claims that God made opposing commandments: 1) to make babies, and 2) to not eat of that tree in the Garden. The same manual I mentioned above says,

"Before the fall, Adam and Eve could have no children. For this reason Adam partook of the forbidden fruit… Adam and Eve fulfilled the commandment of God to multiply and replenish the earth, and 'they… brought forth children; year, even the family of all the earth.'"

Of course Mormonism teaches that God wanted them to transgress, otherwise he wouldn’t have designed it the way he did, right? Gerald Lund said in the Ensign, “The fall was part of a plan laid in the very beginning” (Ensign, Jan. 1990, 22). The Ensign also says, “Thus, the fall was a necessary step in Heavenly Father’s plan to bring about the eternal happiness of his children” (Ensign, June 2006, 48).

If God didn’t want them to break the commandment by eating the fruit, he would have made it possible for them to make babies without having to break that commandment. Thus, God did want them to eat the fruit. The fall wouldn’t have been part of the “plan” if He didn’t want them too. After all, how else could God’s spirit babies ever get physical bodies?

Saturday, July 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know if it is really a matter of calling good evil and evil good when you're talking about the Fall of Adam. I think God, in His infinite wisdom made lemonade out of lemons. Even though Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, they weren't banished and forgotten. He provided a Savior, Jesus Christ, so they might be able to be in God's presence again. Through Jesus Christ they could repent and be forgiven. It's the same with us. God is always looking out for us.

Wednesday, March 05, 2008  

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